Author Topic: The 1st division, where the big boys play  (Read 30889 times)

chi

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2012, 12:42:35 pm »
Sorry Skunk, if it was that simple... it would be fun. But it's not. The difference is just too big in riders. Many riders will still beat mine rested or not.

There are several ways to change this. First you could have a fixed fee for every team in a league. This would make riding in 1a more interesting than becoming 6th in 2... now it's the other way around.

Another thing could me entree fees for races, in stead of paying. This would make racing in 1a interesting too. If you then make sure you always loose at least 5 health points per race, it would make for an interesting question of losing training vs making money.

Also riders should be able to ride less races. Now you can ride all 3 major tours in one season... there should be a greater limit in riding.

To be honest, I'm already losing interest in this game even though I've just came into 1a. I've promoted 3 times in a row. A bit crazy, but I guess I understand the game a bit. Now I have one rider able to score points. That's just crazy. The difference between 1a and 2 is too much. To be honest, I expect to quit before the season is over and I hear other Dutchmen talk about that too. It needs to be fun. Last time in CFF I raced with a U23 team, that was the only way to make money when you promoted. That option is gone.

Also you should question the fact that no great rider ever really comes to the transfermarket. That's a problem for teams wanting to grow.

RaboRuben

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2012, 12:46:37 pm »


Also riders should be able to ride less races. Now you can ride all 3 major tours in one season... there should be a greater limit in riding.


I believe that is the key thing that really needs to be changed.
Teams must be forced a lot more to make choices instead of just ride close to everything the riders are good at. So the form-system needs a change. So the biggest stars can only really peak in 1 or perhaps 2 tours. Through that other riders can get a chance in other races / tours. Just like it is in reallife (no rider can peak in all 3 big tours + some small ones, that would be crazy). In CFF this is possible right now and means the game is currently in a deadlock modus and it would be a shame if people start leaving the game over it. That is what is going to happen the way it is now.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:49:55 pm by RaboRuben »

skunk

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2012, 12:49:53 pm »
I'm no talking of riding with health in 100.....

I'm talking of having some staff with 200 in training camps, 200 in stimulation, riders en 100-100 of health-form, a great director for the race you are riding, etc, etc....and losing maybe 15 points of health each race and winning that 15 points resting.....

For me it's very important to make some staff changes during the season...it's very expensive but have its reward  ;).

If you continue with your standard staff, without losing health in races the teams that have a superb racing staff will defeat you with worst riders....so it's not the 100 health, which also counts, there're a lot of staff habilities with a great importance  ;)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:54:18 pm by skunk »

skunk

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2012, 12:53:03 pm »


Also riders should be able to ride less races. Now you can ride all 3 major tours in one season... there should be a greater limit in riding.


I believe that is the key thing that really needs to be changed.
Teams must be forced a lot more to make choices instead of just ride close to everything the riders are good at. So the form-system needs a change. So the biggest stars can only really peak in 1 or perhaps 2 tours. Through that other riders can get a chance in other races / tours. Just like it is in reallife (no rider can peak in all 3 big tours + some small ones, that would be crazy). In CFF this is possible right now and means the game is currently in a deadlock modus and it would be a shame if people start leaving the game over it. That is what is going to happen the way it is now.

In first division I can't ride two Big Tours with the same rider. If i were to a tour without a training camp I think I won't be top10 with any rider or perhaps just with one. I need my 200 in training camps so I need to rotate all my riders and not to run with the same cyclists all the tours.

In other divisions I think it may be a problem, but in first division not  ;)

RaboRuben

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2012, 12:55:32 pm »
Ok, that is new information to me. But than again, changing staff that much will cost a serious shitload of money. You can afford that, most teams somewhere in the middle of 1a can't.

skunk

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 01:00:14 pm »
It costs me money, but it gives me money too....It depends on when, how and more things, but it probably will be economically profitable for middle teams. I think what you lose is trainings more than money  ;) and it hurts a lot  ;D. In season 6 I only changed for the Vuelta a España, and I think I ended it 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th...and I score a lot in single stages....I may lost near 1 million on changing staff, and I lose 11 trainings for each cyclist, but i won much more money that I have paid and I became the Champion again  :)

However if every team did that it wouldn't be profitable for anyone and probably it would best to train...but with only 2-3 teams doing this in some points of the season in my opinion it will be profitable for anyone.... (however i'm not sure i'm not a middle team table  ;))
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 01:03:44 pm by skunk »

Sjiz

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2012, 01:27:54 pm »
Great that you are joining in the discussion Skunk :) Thats always good. Ill give you an example of my expenses sheet near the end of last season( i got about 2mil points bonus, and race prizes were mostly CFF cup prizes):

Expenses
Staff      438299   
Cyclists    140721   
Scout       130000   
Promote   270000     
Sign up for a race   568000                     
Transfer market   10889250             
Put up for sale   105000   
Layoffs   243030   
Training camp   40000
Stores   0
Equipment  1150000 
 
Income
Race prizes   988549   
Tours   0
Transfers 11721611     
Main sponsor    708070   
Stores      0
Equipment   940000 
 
As you can see changing my staff for just one tour would be way to expensive to responsibly do, or even for one race.

oscacom

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2012, 01:45:56 pm »
I think the biggest problem is due to the game only has 8th seasons.
It makes cyclists with 19 or 20 years can be on top during 12 or 13 seasons. People that started 2,3,4,5 seasons after can't get easily cyclists with good training and if they get top cyclists with 19 or 20 years they need 7-9 seasons until they are competitive.
Now cyclists with 26 are in their 8th season training and it is difficult beat him having equal abilities, only great talents with 1-2 years less can beat them .

I always like read opinions to balance the game.
I think the real game started when cyclists that now have 26 have more than 30 years.
Now you can buy a top cyclist and you know you score points during 5-6 years but in a few years a top cyclist is difficult to have more than 3-4 good years not 10 as now, and most of them will have 1-3 good years.
You could train young cyclists 19 to 23, sell and get money, or buy cyclists buy a good base 22-25 years and put them in 27-28 to get points and sell them for a good money... more options to play and you can find cyclist trained that now it is difficult due to our young game ( I find difficult get as example sprinters that have very high sprint, plain, tech... to put them in 100 sprint or time before make the same with mountain because cyclists need train more to need specific training.).

I read now you can play 3 big tours, yes, I usually play 3 tours but I have my cost in training seasons ( I lose trainings but I win tours , as Cenador started with 19 he can win during some years, it would be imposible win great tours in future until 27-28 maybe).
I put more races that you can play because in old Cff people tell me it is boring only training without play races, because people train their stars during years losing only training to recover health. I make now best cyclists can compete more and adding good bonus in staff and training camp you only can compete at 100% during 15 days  and if my director has bonus in great tours if I race 1 day races or 5 days Tours my cyclist lose competitivity. There are a lot of ways.

A idea that I have read and maybe could be an option is put a fixed money to play in every division to make be in 1a more interesting, I understand "chi" said and if I can I would like read ideas to avoid a boring game :(
I will study to add it if in staff we think it would be good.


skunk

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2012, 01:55:57 pm »
 Sjiz I was writting a response to you and I've seen that osca have written to....well I'm glad to see that we say more or less the same  ;D, so I'm going to put here what I've written  ;)

If I were in your situation I probably won't change staff and I won't lose trainings.

One thing is the theory, that in my point of view what what I've told in other posts.

And other thing is that if I usually ended first division near the 30th place and I know that if i lose some trainings I can end it near the 10th place I will do it. I think I won't do it, because I'd prefer to continue training my riders, and for me it will be more or less the same to end the 10th than the 30th. But I think it's good for you to know how the top teams are riding, and how the take advantage of the teams that want to train, by losing some trainings during the season.

So I don't know which is the best solution...if there were more prizes the top teams will earn more money and I think it will be worst. The end of season tax is also a good measure for leveling the game. Perhaps to give a fixed amount to every first division team can be a good measure, I don't know. What I know is that the game is better and more leveled that three seasons ago.

And as I have said, none of the top teams ride a Big Tour with the same riders....only Cenador can make that, because he is a superb rider and he is much better than the others but if you see with which riders the top teams compite in the Big Tours and usually ends in top10:

snow-giro: Norksov, Teteris, Donaldson...
snow-tour: Abolins, Tweed
snow-vuelta: Ivsev (Norksov usually rides it too, but he has no training camp and he's near the 10th place).

LAKERS-giro: Matilla, Desmedt
LAKERS-tour: Errazti, Thore
LAKERS-Vuelta: Meier.

Skunk-giro: Moens and now Reccius.
Skunk-tour: Bruel, Acosta.
Skunk-Vuelta: Santiago, VanKessel, Olmedo, Goplachev.

Tourmalet is changing every season but he also doesn't repeat with a top rider in a Big Tour  ;).

What you should have in mind too is that when this generation is over, the top teams should be different...for us and with the end-season-tax it will be almost impossible to renew our teams, although my obligation is to try it. So yo can make a new generation of new riders and wait your moment, or play with the market buying cheap and selling expensive or things like that to improve your team level.

The u23 points in CFF started when it was impossible to win the white jersey with standard points and in this game we haven't reached that point although is near. I don't know what are we going to do, but you shouldn't discard that in a couple of seasons there would be u23 points...we have to discuss it  ;).

And of course we are open to any suggestions that can improve the game, however it isn't easy to find something that everybody likes  ;).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 01:57:58 pm by skunk »

chi

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2012, 01:58:48 pm »

I'm talking of having some staff with 200 in training camps, 200 in stimulation, riders en 100-100 of health-form, a great director for the race you are riding, etc, etc....and losing maybe 15 points of health each race and winning that 15 points resting.....
 

And yet, if I did that, my riders would still end 40th...

skunk

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2012, 02:03:34 pm »

I'm talking of having some staff with 200 in training camps, 200 in stimulation, riders en 100-100 of health-form, a great director for the race you are riding, etc, etc....and losing maybe 15 points of health each race and winning that 15 points resting.....
 

And yet, if I did that, my riders would still end 40th...

I don't think so  ;)

chi

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2012, 02:22:49 pm »

I'm talking of having some staff with 200 in training camps, 200 in stimulation, riders en 100-100 of health-form, a great director for the race you are riding, etc, etc....and losing maybe 15 points of health each race and winning that 15 points resting.....
 

And yet, if I did that, my riders would still end 40th...

I don't think so  ;)

Trust me, they will. The difference between the quality of riders is simply too much.

@Oska: There are several ideas to make the game more interesting and the economics working better. As an economist, I can try and help with a few.

1) A steady amount of money depending on the division (like I said before). This would make it more profitable to be low in 1a then high in 2. It's like the champions league vs European league, but don't make the difference too big since that would make promoting almost impossible.

2) A fee for entering races in stead of costing money. Also depending on the division you are in. The interesting thing with this is that you need to race to make money, but you need to choose for a good balance between optimal training and making money for your trainees. Specially if you make sure you loose some health every race.

3) Experience should be more important. Just like in real cycling, the experience of a rider very often makes for his quality to win races. One thing I thought about when you quit last time (we were looking to start a similar game) was to make stamina depended on races. So you can't train it, only gain it by riding races. This way riding is also training (just like in real cycling) and for example races above 200km you need good stamina. Just like explosiveness a rider has a certain starting point (but for example never more then 50 or 60), but needs to work it up by riding. This takes away the 'forever training' from the first CFF (I didn't like that either).

4) Form peeks. Just like in real cycling you can decide when the riders should have form (what races) and the rest there form is much less, making it possible for lesser teams to focus on 'lesser races'.

5) Less races per rider. For example: after a maximum of 30 racedays per rider, then your form drops to less then 90...

6) More races simultaneously. In stead of a race in the morning and evening, you have a double calendar. One rider can either participate in the morning, or the evening race. So a rider can either do the Dauphine or Switserland, either Paris-Nice or the Tirreno.

7) Higher salaries for top riders. A rider should earn more when he scores well. The winner of a big Tour should go up 50% in salary every time, the number 2 25% the number 3 10%. A little less for the classic winners, etc. This makes not only the income go up, but also the costs.

8) contracts (not going to happen, but it's an option). A rider has a contract for a certain time and when it expires, he's free to the highest salary bidder. Or he get's transferlisted for 1 or something. You can of course prologue a contract, if the salary offered is enough.

Anyway, just some thought, probably a combination of these could be best. It's not that the game isn't fun, it's just that getting to 1a is fun, but then you can't do anything anymore. I had over 15 million, but can't seem to buy a rider that's able to do top 10 anywhere... I need to start over, but then why did I promote 3 seasons in a row?


skunk

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2012, 02:38:28 pm »
My personal opinion is:
0. Ok, lets tie  ;D. I don't know how are your riders, and you don't know the wonderful things that you can make with a superb staff  ;).

1. I agree.
2. I don't see it....the top teams have to pay a fee in trainings to have great results as I told you before....if you put it mandatory to all the teams, there will be less participation and more points for the top teams which actually we're paying a voluntary fee to have great results.
3, 6 and 8: Too big changes for the game.
4. You have it, it's called training camp and in combination with great staff it is for me the most important thing of the game.
5. For the top teams it will be an advantage because they have to ride in important events with different riders due to the training camp power. For medium teams or teams that are training it will be a disadvantage so they may have only 3-4 cyclists to compete and have a good time.
7. It happens now but not at that amount:
In my team:

Bruel 15272
Santiago 13583
Vidal 13440
Johansen 12660
Grasis 11609
.....

In my opinion with 15 million you can buy a couple of cyclists that make some points in first division.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 02:41:14 pm by skunk »

JohnnyQKuch

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2012, 02:58:13 pm »
Thanks Skunk for a new way of looking at staff.

It is great that you only finished 20th last season, so you'll understand. There were still 40 teams behind you that didn't relegate. So they didn't made a lot of money (without transfers). For most of those teams that will be so almost every season. So they are getting a bit desperate. They think teams like yours are making way to much money and they are happy to break even. And that gap between the few top teams and the rest is getting a lot bigger. It can change a bit, when the top riders of 26 years, hit 30 or 32. But rich teams will still be rich and will be able to buy the best riders.

But personally I think there are just to many teams in a division. Now it is a huge achievement to stay into div 1, the difference with div 2 is enormous. And you can start seeing it too in div 2. Div 2 is getting full and some teams have great difficulty adapting to that level. And it isn't fun if you are to good to relegate, but not nearly good enough to get a decent result. I know there is somewhat of a choice going for training or results, but it's relatively easy to combine the two.

Divisions of 50-60 teams would help the game, keeping it fun for every player. (With a small adjustment to the finances). Now I see a lot of players quit because they have nothing to look forward to.

I started this message an hour ago, so some things have already been said. I understand Osca and Skunk, I also agree for the most part, Chi also had some good ideas. But the main thing for me is still the number of opponents.

skunk

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Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2012, 03:11:09 pm »

It is great that you only finished 20th last season, so you'll understand. There were still 40 teams behind you that didn't relegate. So they didn't made a lot of money (without transfers). For most of those teams that will be so almost every season. So they are getting a bit desperate. They think teams like yours are making way to much money and they are happy to break even. And that gap between the few top teams and the rest is getting a lot bigger. It can change a bit, when the top riders of 26 years, hit 30 or 32. But rich teams will still be rich and will be able to buy the best riders.

Just a thing...

I know that I was more or less even last season being the 20th so if you don't play with the market it's difficult to stay in first division in middle table. But top teams don't win as much money as you think...I don't know, perhaps if I win the division I can win 6-7 million each season. Then I've to pay the taxes that is more or less what I earn with the money given for points scored....So if I can generate 7 millions each season and in 5 seasons I have to renew the whole team as you see it will be completely impossible to compete with a team that have a good young generation...I may be able to buy 3 top cyclists, but not more. And also the end of season tax makes up impossible to save a great amount of money because you've to pay more taxes...I think to continue winning after this generation I'll need about 100 millions and it's completely impossible to reach that amount. In fact I can't have 50 millions, because if I have it, it will be 10 millions of taxes and no profit.

So i'm working each season on the limit of 25 millions, trying to be a bit under there when the seasons finish....and it's completely impossible to renew my team with that money  ;).

I know that if you have 1-2 millions and you read me talking of these big amounts you may be a bit discouraged, but if you think a little...I don't see the way of continue winning after this generation...although I have to think something, because it is a great challenge for me  :)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 03:17:06 pm by skunk »