Author Topic: The 1st division, where the big boys play  (Read 32305 times)

dziemie

  • Guest
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2012, 03:24:35 pm »
Just  thinking out loud...

Isn't it a pity that:

- performing well in races, damages the development of riders.
- for being a top team, you have to fire your staff every other week.
- for peaking, you have to stop competing for 15 races... (training camp)

it is a bit in contradiction with reality (which still is the basis of the game).

As a thinking exercise to solve the above...


- replacing form as it is now with 2 form peaks. In the beginning of a season you choose for a rider 2 form peaks, for example race 50 and race 88. Every race form will gain 1 point till the peak en then decrease again. In this example it means the rider will start the season with 50 form, at race 50 he has 100 form, at race 69 he has 81 form en then form rises to 100 at race 88. After which form decreases again till the end of the season.

- training camp gives a 10% training bonus instead of a temporary racing bonus. It gives the trainer the opportunity to train extra in low form periods... Only 1 training camp is aloud offcourse.

- Staff is chosen for the rest of the season. (year contracts, like material, but you can not sell)

- Instead of using health, you can choose to have only one form peak in a season. That way you get a small training bonus, but your rider can still race.

Just ideas...


JohnnyQKuch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1185
  • CoureursDeFréjus (2c) - BC Belgium
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2012, 03:34:05 pm »

It is great that you only finished 20th last season, so you'll understand. There were still 40 teams behind you that didn't relegate. So they didn't made a lot of money (without transfers). For most of those teams that will be so almost every season. So they are getting a bit desperate. They think teams like yours are making way to much money and they are happy to break even. And that gap between the few top teams and the rest is getting a lot bigger. It can change a bit, when the top riders of 26 years, hit 30 or 32. But rich teams will still be rich and will be able to buy the best riders.

Just a thing...

I know that I was more or less even last season being the 20th so if you don't play with the market it's difficult to stay in first division in middle table. But top teams don't win as much money as you think...I don't know, perhaps if I win the division I can win 6-7 million each season. Then I've to pay the taxes that is more or less what I earn with the money given for points scored....So if I can generate 7 millions each season and in 5 seasons I have to renew the whole team as you see it will be completely impossible to compete with a team that have a good young generation...I may be able to buy 3 top cyclists, but not more. And also the end of season tax makes up impossible to save a great amount of money because you've to pay more taxes...I think to continue winning after this generation I'll need about 100 millions and it's completely impossible to reach that amount. In fact I can't have 50 millions, because if I have it, it will be 10 millions of taxes and no profit.

So i'm working each season on the limit of 25 millions, trying to be a bit under there when the seasons finish....and it's completely impossible to renew my team with that money  ;).

I know that if you have 1-2 millions and you read me talking of these big amounts you may be a bit discouraged, but if you think a little...I don't see the way of continue winning after this generation...although I have to think something, because it is a great challenge for me  :)

I understand you. But after your golden years, you will still be with the best 10-20 teams. You can also sell a good rider in one or two seasons for 40 mil, to get more money to build a new team. Whatever, that is your problem (a luxury problem). For my part, you may win every season from now on.

That wasn't really the point I was trying to make. The point is: There isn't enough left for teams between place 30 and 75 to fight over. It is time for the u23 points or smaller divisions or something. Because players will quit this game, if it keeps being this hard to get results. Now it is only in 1a but with division 2 getting filled up, teams start struggling there as well. People want to see results. If you chose for training, ok, you know it. But most teams are mixed and they also want some results. If it takes to long, they will give up. And the situation now, will stay the same for 4 more seasons.

dziemie

  • Guest
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2012, 03:57:49 pm »
I understand you. But after your golden years, you will still be with the best 10-20 teams. You can also sell a good rider in one or two seasons for 40 mil, to get more money to build a new team. Whatever, that is your problem (a luxury problem). For my part, you may win every season from now on.

That wasn't really the point I was trying to make. The point is: There isn't enough left for teams between place 30 and 75 to fight over. It is time for the u23 points or smaller divisions or something. Because players will quit this game, if it keeps being this hard to get results. Now it is only in 1a but with division 2 getting filled up, teams start struggling there as well. People want to see results. If you chose for training, ok, you know it. But most teams are mixed and they also want some results. If it takes to long, they will give up. And the situation now, will stay the same for 4 more seasons.

People are quitting the game...

I think half of the players promoting to 1a are seriously considering quitting the game. Because when you are 30th-40th in 1a and you were in the top of 2a the season before, the fun is gone in the game.

I think this is the main reason why some (small) changes should be considered. It's no use waiting another 5 seasons till the game levels, when half of the loyal players have left because of disillusion.

You finally make it to 1a, you do everything you can to score points.
You finish 30th in the global CFF ranking (Last season you were 80th) and become National champion.
Your reward: a lousy 1M prize money (which you have to spend immediately on material), your riders are 1 year older and less valuable now, your store made 100k loss and you haven't achieved a single sponsor goal.

I think this is why people try to stay in 2nd division (by trying to be 6th) and some people deliberately relegate from 1a.


Telamon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5186
  • Argonautjes 2A
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2012, 04:18:17 pm »
Sponsorgoals? Arent they toys for the big teams?

I accepted yesterday one because i can use it in the 2nd division after this season... For me they are useless.

My fun is aiming at young riders. But a 23y old doesnt make points as a 23y old did in div 1a two seasons ago. I have to wait, as ive read above, until they are 27-28. That means 4 seasons, or almost a year IRL... Thats a long time.

JohnnyQKuch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1185
  • CoureursDeFréjus (2c) - BC Belgium
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2012, 04:20:12 pm »
I understand you. But after your golden years, you will still be with the best 10-20 teams. You can also sell a good rider in one or two seasons for 40 mil, to get more money to build a new team. Whatever, that is your problem (a luxury problem). For my part, you may win every season from now on.

That wasn't really the point I was trying to make. The point is: There isn't enough left for teams between place 30 and 75 to fight over. It is time for the u23 points or smaller divisions or something. Because players will quit this game, if it keeps being this hard to get results. Now it is only in 1a but with division 2 getting filled up, teams start struggling there as well. People want to see results. If you chose for training, ok, you know it. But most teams are mixed and they also want some results. If it takes to long, they will give up. And the situation now, will stay the same for 4 more seasons.

People are quitting the game...

I think half of the players promoting to 1a are seriously considering quitting the game. Because when you are 30th-40th in 1a and you were in the top of 2a the season before, the fun is gone in the game.

I think this is the main reason why some (small) changes should be considered. It's no use waiting another 5 seasons till the game levels, when half of the loyal players have left because of disillusion.

You finally make it to 1a, you do everything you can to score points.
You finish 30th in the global CFF ranking (Last season you were 80th) and become National champion.
Your reward: a lousy 1M prize money (which you have to spend immediately on material), your riders are 1 year older and less valuable now, your store made 100k loss and you haven't achieved a single sponsor goal.

I think this is why people try to stay in 2nd division (by trying to be 6th) and some people deliberately relegate from 1a.

For sure.

I'm not going to quit the game, some other people are doubting. But I'll try to make it better for everyone. If the situation stays the same, I think I'll try to get 0 points and have some fun again in div 2, in 2 seasons I will probably be ready for 1a. Now I have the money to buy a rider that can finish top 10. So I would end up with 1000-1500 points, for the next 2 seasons. And that is the situation for 40-50 teams in 1a (maybe a bit better than me). Any change now would be welcome, but I understand it won't be possible this season.

oscacom

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5919
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2012, 04:30:03 pm »

I'm talking of having some staff with 200 in training camps, 200 in stimulation, riders en 100-100 of health-form, a great director for the race you are riding, etc, etc....and losing maybe 15 points of health each race and winning that 15 points resting.....
 

And yet, if I did that, my riders would still end 40th...

I don't think so  ;)

Trust me, they will. The difference between the quality of riders is simply too much.

@Oska: There are several ideas to make the game more interesting and the economics working better. As an economist, I can try and help with a few.

1) A steady amount of money depending on the division (like I said before). This would make it more profitable to be low in 1a then high in 2. It's like the champions league vs European league, but don't make the difference too big since that would make promoting almost impossible.

2) A fee for entering races in stead of costing money. Also depending on the division you are in. The interesting thing with this is that you need to race to make money, but you need to choose for a good balance between optimal training and making money for your trainees. Specially if you make sure you loose some health every race.

3) Experience should be more important. Just like in real cycling, the experience of a rider very often makes for his quality to win races. One thing I thought about when you quit last time (we were looking to start a similar game) was to make stamina depended on races. So you can't train it, only gain it by riding races. This way riding is also training (just like in real cycling) and for example races above 200km you need good stamina. Just like explosiveness a rider has a certain starting point (but for example never more then 50 or 60), but needs to work it up by riding. This takes away the 'forever training' from the first CFF (I didn't like that either).

4) Form peeks. Just like in real cycling you can decide when the riders should have form (what races) and the rest there form is much less, making it possible for lesser teams to focus on 'lesser races'.

5) Less races per rider. For example: after a maximum of 30 racedays per rider, then your form drops to less then 90...

6) More races simultaneously. In stead of a race in the morning and evening, you have a double calendar. One rider can either participate in the morning, or the evening race. So a rider can either do the Dauphine or Switserland, either Paris-Nice or the Tirreno.

7) Higher salaries for top riders. A rider should earn more when he scores well. The winner of a big Tour should go up 50% in salary every time, the number 2 25% the number 3 10%. A little less for the classic winners, etc. This makes not only the income go up, but also the costs.

8) contracts (not going to happen, but it's an option). A rider has a contract for a certain time and when it expires, he's free to the highest salary bidder. Or he get's transferlisted for 1 or something. You can of course prologue a contract, if the salary offered is enough.

Anyway, just some thought, probably a combination of these could be best. It's not that the game isn't fun, it's just that getting to 1a is fun, but then you can't do anything anymore. I had over 15 million, but can't seem to buy a rider that's able to do top 10 anywhere... I need to start over, but then why did I promote 3 seasons in a row?

1- I agree, we will study it
2-I don't understand well your idea, I don't think it is very important if I read it well ( but my english level is poor).
3-Experience has a good influence and always is possible change it. Since Cff started I tried to make it important to make people race and at same time has balanced influence with skills value. I think it is a good bonus and with Cenador I can check it is very important.
4-I try in my team planning put my highest form level in best races for me, racing a bit to get form before and when I'm at 100% race best races. We can change form levels , more races to get level, but I think with staff skills and actual system you can play.
5-As I said in 4, we can change form levels, we try people race more than train. You can race 35 races but you lose trainings and in future you have less level than other cyclist that race 25 races or 20 races, because you can lose some training processes.
6-It is now imposible without make a total remake of the game because all important processes works according to one simultaneous race.
7- My best cyclist has a wage of near 30.000 every week, near 300.000 a season. All these values can be changed but every change must be study not only change for change.
8-I don't like at all. Since I make the game I tried a cyclist you train since you are as example in 4th you can mantain him, if not only good teams can afford these wages. Wage for me never should be as important as make people must quit their stars, it must be a cost, but this way for me make other game not Cff. Everybody can put a high wage in your wage system and quit you your cyclists.

I cannot buy a top10 because money is not as important as training. I have money but people don't sell their stars and until more good cyclists are with good skills to train well it is difficult . I don't think it is better that a rich team can buy top10, for me is better people train and you sell only players that in your team can't train well or have other cyclists in same races.
It is difficult balance all areas and to all players because I received since Cff started a lot of suggestions and 100% differents, for this it is imposible to make the game black and white at same time, I must decide.

Spammie

  • Guest
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2012, 06:56:17 pm »
The teams that focus on the classic riders can ride about 30 races with a maximum of form. For me, it means my rider are in full shape for the full season except of the first weeks. That's not realistic, and it makes it harder for new teams (and young riders) to score points. Decreasing the form in general should do the trick.

I think we should change the way form works. Now it is about stages raced, and I think it is better to change it to consecutive stages not raced. That means a rider should race once in a while to keep his form on a decent level. Now, a rider can ride Liège - Bastogne - Liège at 100 form, and at the end the season the World Championship Road Race can be raced with 100 form too.

My first suggestion is to make 100 form only possible after having attended a trainingscamp. (give a bonus of ~10 form for the trainingscamp)

Secondly, decrease the basis form levels. Now we start at 90 (plus bonus for staff), make that 70 or something. Give a bonus for the amount of stages a rider participated in the past two weeks (or something, we should study). The more stages raced, the better the form gets.

Give a penalty for the total amount of races raced, just like now but maybe quicker.

Telamon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5186
  • Argonautjes 2A
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2012, 07:49:26 pm »
aargh...

31º   Pál Józsi   23   Argonautjes    a 0 minutos 41sg   

oscacom

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5919
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2012, 09:14:11 pm »
This is old way in Cff, every day you don't race you lose 1 point form and it was as boring as now.
Some cyclists only want to train and race when their form was at limit and others try be 100-100, equal as now that I see talents that race only a bit and other race 40.

You can be in 100 form with staff during a good time, with is imposible you get 1day director bonus, estimulation bonus...fatigue bonus... to be at 100% in all, maybe  other with 90-95 form with high bonuses has better results other at 100.
If you recover well to train , maybe you cannot race well because fatigue, form... are not good.
Is imposible have form bonus, training camp bonus ( competition bonus high). Compete in high level you lose training. I have a top cyclist in plain cobbles ( now only in training camp maybe he can be from 10 to 20 position) and he was top5 2 seasons ago.
Other cyclist I have was good in TT, now he has problems to get points; other that scored in hills, now difficult get any point...
There are a lot of ways  ( compete 100%, train 100%, 50%, play with staff bonuses , with training camps, save money , trading...

Bos

  • Guest
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2012, 12:05:10 am »
My first points in 1A with Tolosa  ;D

I'm a big team now too  :-\  ::)

Nope, still can't open a store, still can't do any sponsordeals, second division brought more options.
So I agree with other comments about a change that is needed.
Like people before me allready said, it is nice for Skunk to join the discussion, but I don't think he can see or really understands the problem. Looking at his reactions, he hasn't been in this position.

So changes are needed to do something about...........:
Making about 10 million less money then when you were a division lower  :-\
Having no money to buy division 1 pointtakers, even though they are hardly for sale.
No stores
no sponsordeals
Training for 5 or 6 seasons and then hoping you have a rider who can come in the top10 in races, but then still, you can't open a store or hardly do any sponsordeals.

I won't stop playing though, I see it as a challenge that costs time, but there should be a option to make the game more attractive for very active players.

skunk

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4186
  • Aitzol Santiago, ganó tanto que no cabe en el HoF.
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2012, 09:28:52 am »

Like people before me allready said, it is nice for Skunk to join the discussion, but I don't think he can see or really understands the problem. Looking at his reactions, he hasn't been in this position.

Of course I haven't been in your position, but you haven't been in my position also  ;D.....so lets try to understand the other side  :).

I know that now you can make much more money in second division than in first division, and we should try to fix it.

But my main objective here is saying you that it isn't as easy as you think, to keep training, be in good form for racing a lot of races and having good results.

All of you like the visible effects of the staff....form, health, improving materials.....and in my opinion you subestimate the non visible effects that are taking into account in races...and for me they're so important.

So it isn't as easy as you think to ride in a lot of races and not losing trainings....

For example, last season, the Championship of LAKERS is based on having a very good planification to get 100 form with all the important cyclists without any staff help in form, and then after that, he could have a superb staff from the Tour until end of season. And without form staff you can only ride 10 races in 100 form....

So as oska said, you can't have everything....if you want to race a lot of races with your cyclists, you need good form staff and in races other teams with other strong staff points have advantage over you...

And then...about today race...what a wrong tactic I've put  :'(...you can have everything perfect, but if you miss with the tactic you're out.  Today with a good tactic I'm completely sure that I should have been in the top5, and with a bad tactic I ended the 25  :'( :'( :'(
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 09:36:08 am by skunk »

Sjiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5955
  • TeamRolf - 3H
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2012, 10:19:28 am »
31º Bob Frydenvang 26 TeamRolf a 0 minutos 47sg

Boooooooo!

Screwed up with tactics. My helper was in front of him the entire time. Ah well, tonight should suit him better :P

Thorin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7393
  • Larga vida a Sacroux y NOFX. Matterhorn rules!
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2012, 01:16:43 pm »
I don't like to give money just for beeing in first division.

Then people who are in lower divisions will start to complain about that, like the ones who are complaning now in first division.

If you don't have enough good cyclists to be in first division, maybe is not a good idea to promote. Everyone knows his potential, so maybe is better to stay longer in lower divisions and train young cyclists.

I have one of the youngest teams in first division, but I'm training because I know that my team will be top in the future. What's happening now? I'm loosing money, but I don't care. Maybe if I go to second division I will be able to earn more money, but I will not be able to do another things like:

 - Compete for national jerseys
 - Get more achievements (only for teams in first division)
 - Compete for the white jersey
...


I'm loosing money, yes, but at the same time I have horrible staff for competitions (my staff is for training). It would be perfect if I could have training staff and at the same time compete with my cyclists in perfct conditions, but guys... everybody wants everything, but it's impossible.

The guys who are in the top 10 don't have young cyclists like the others. They don't have the same staff like me for example, and they can't train 20 cyclists like other teams. They are earning money now, but the teams who are training young cyclists will earn more much money by selling the cyclists in the future. Anybody complains about that??

You can choose, compete or training, but you cannnot be a top team and train awesome young cyclists at the same time.

levsim

  • Guest
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2012, 10:27:55 am »
I think everybody accepts that there is a gap between teams. It's just like IRL: there are richer teams with different budget and it's hard to catch up.

I think people miss fun in 1a which could be eased by some tiny changes:
- sponsordeals for Top 30, not just Top 10.
- store profit depending more on division (teams in 1a could have profitable store let's say over 1000 points)

We can make also small changes which needs more consideration:
- higher wages for superstars (so you simply can't afford so many supernatural cyclists)
- season award according to division so it makes profitable to be even a middle team in 1a
- U23 competition like in old CFF

I think recreating form, health, stamina, training camp, etc... calculation would be simply too big change for the game.

Thorin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7393
  • Larga vida a Sacroux y NOFX. Matterhorn rules!
    • View Profile
Re: The 1st division, where the big boys play
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2012, 11:11:37 am »
I wanted to wear the white jersey at least some dayd, but it has been impossoble. My staff doesn't know anything about competing and ,y rider finnished 31st and 33rd haha.