Author Topic: Long term perspective in CFF  (Read 5283 times)

TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 11:54:17 pm »
Yes I always like to hear new ideas.

I just posted this on the spanish forum

But it will become a huge mess if all ideas are thrown at the table at once  ;D
Like I mentioned in the new talent pull subject. We are trying to change something we don't know why we are changing.

I would really like to have some hash tags to use for each argument. Instead of inventing new all the time.
We will all loose it very quickly. Even if you just are working by yourself. Sorry for being a little strict and the link will explain why.

I am reading  8)
OK Oska I think many of these changes will do the game much better. It will probably be a tough nut to crack when the times come. But I think it will be better than small quick fixes that end up tweaking the game in wrong directions. Because it is difficult to get the riders you want at the exact time you want them, etc.

TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2016, 01:42:03 am »
Season Calendar:
I think a lot of brain power was invested when the current calendar was arranged. How to balance the A; B; C; D and tours. The points, when to place what race an etc  :o

This happened because of a very random calendar in the earlier version of CFF. Many of the CFF users don't like to loose on luck. There are invested to much time in the game for this! If a game take 5 minutes most of us can accept to loose because of Fortuna.

Luckily CFF has a little luck coded in the game: A hidden luck factor during race and rider crashes (very rare). Weather can maybe also be luck.
CFF has done another important thing and implement hidden variables that can't be tracked by the opposition! Staff, gear, Training Camp, etc. And finally a newer invention I'm not a fan of. World Challenge cards only those used in races. A tweak in the game! I don't mind the other World Challenge cards.

If this wasn't a part of the game it would become too static and untolerable. Unless you have autistic tendencies.

I'm a big fan of a slightly change in the calendar each season  8) You need to adapt you team and riders for the upcoming season.
race 1 of the season could be a mountain hill race where certain variables can change +/- . Most of us will probably agree that it shouldn't change as much as in the draft races or NT races. Which is chosen from the database.
Race 2 a hilly sprint race
Race 3.....
Tour stage changes  :o a little more complicated

The database will need many more stages that fit to the current values. These needs to be found and made in the current CFF form. Maybe I'm wrong about this  :D

The negative side is that records and old winners are of no use if the races changes slightly from season to season.
The history is very cool. Remember the biggest riders. But how much does the average CFF user think about this? 

Other races, more pure cobblestone, sprint etc. And new tours will be discussed in a season length post
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:41:29 am by TeamSolex »

TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2016, 02:35:21 am »

Competition -> Form
Another thing i think could be looked at is form. I think we start with too high form and are able to stay too long at 100 form. The only time when you see interesting results is near the Vuelta. When you have larger differences in form. I like this. Perhaps bigger highs and bigger lows may be a good thing. Or multiple possible form peaks. Like have a rider not race 10 races and thus only training make him go up in

The 100 form peak are too long with current calendar and seven more races added will not change much. It will be a easy to implement (i think). And I like the idea a lot. Other boost for form gain should be removed (is WC card the only one?).
And riders would still be able to race 54-55 races pro season. This could be lowered if more tours are introduced.
Harder to retain the form of riders could maybe open up for competing and training younger riders at the same time.

Is this enough to change anything since you need 2 world class riders to compete on highest level. So will the one rider not just be in form at one point of the season and the other one take over at a later point of the season?

Only a few number of teams are willing to race for the 1st div GC and they get the best riders. Because no one really wants to spend that cash when they are sold. Teams are thinking "Why should we? I have one of the best sprinters and a great Time trialist. What should I use another 1800 points for in the big score?"
Heay, maybe the helpers rarely aren't so good as I think they are  ???

Freak accidents happened like : Alberto Taglioni, Cristian Graziosi, Mario Lodolini  ;D Nothing to do about that ;D ;D
Boulay are another freak and so rare. Remember if a rider like will be (>20%) less rare in the future! They doesn't come much better than that. So the Boluay caliber rider will become more everyday, I don't believe it will be satisfying on the long run.

@ Sjiz and others. Just start labeling your suggestions with a couple of tags you find use full or all ready in use. Hopefully it will become handy later on.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 02:38:39 am by TeamSolex »

oscacom

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5909
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2016, 07:37:04 am »
You can compete 54 races but not at high level.
Always I compete full level with staff to win, I can't pass 35 races with options and I only recovered 10 points when I rest actually.
If you have stimulation, training camp bonus and fatigue, you can only have a medium form bonus.
For this if you race 54-55 races , first of all you don't have 20 good cyclists because you can't do , because 118*5=590/20 =29,5 races by cyclist.
And you only can do it to get experience, not racing 100%.

Sjiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5951
  • TeamRolf - 3H
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2016, 10:42:51 am »
35 races at top level mean that a GC rider can be top in every grand tour and a hillsprinter etc can be top in every stage that suits them. I feel that is too much.

@Solex. I was labelling. But apparently not what you thought up how it should be :p

TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2016, 01:49:29 pm »
@ Sjiz yes i know but give it a few more. It will give others a hence. If you a have read it you can track it easily later. Maybe this subject dies out quickly. But I hope it will continue for some time and it will be nice to track where you read what.

There aren't many hill sprint races. They are very different in GV only the Big Senn could win them all  8) So not being able to race them in a sub discipline would. I think they have a number of 8 stages I recall. And that is also stages with 3 plain sections. There are other disciplines that would suffer too. But I i get your point  ;)

Competition -> Form
The dual calendar are hot trending at the Spanish guys  :o It would be a great way to implement conflicts of interest. By strategic place races of the same type.

Calendar
I also had another idea. Right now riders can ride every single race possible if they want to. This means that even in a D-stage you will most likely see all the best cyclists in the world appear. While this could be nice it is also not very realistic. In order to increase the realism and possibility for lesser riders to score a good result in some races i would think an overlap is cool.


Like you have the calender: The giro ditalia is currently underway. You have to sign up riders for that but at the same time we have the Tour of California as well. You will have to field a different team for that race. All the top sprinters may go to the Giro because of the money, the fame and the girls. But you have the lesser sprinters that do the ToC in order to get experience and get results. You can make the morning stages the giro stages and the evening stages the ToC stages + some day races/4 days of dunkirk whatever. Same for Paris - Nice and Tirreno, TdF etc etc.

If this was implemented would it still be necessary to change the form ???

wacco

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1884
  • absyntt 2a member since 27-12-2014
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2016, 02:00:57 pm »
@ Sjiz yes i know but give it a few more. It will give others a hence. If you a have read it you can track it easily later. Maybe this subject dies out quickly. But I hope it will continue for some time and it will be nice to track where you read what.

There aren't many hill sprint races. They are very different in GV only the Big Senn could win them all  8) So not being able to race them in a sub discipline would. I think they have a number of 8 stages I recall. And that is also stages with 3 plain sections. There are other disciplines that would suffer too. But I i get your point  ;)

Competition -> Form
The dual calendar are hot trending at the Spanish guys  :o It would be a great way to implement conflicts of interest. By strategic place races of the same type.

Calendar
I also had another idea. Right now riders can ride every single race possible if they want to. This means that even in a D-stage you will most likely see all the best cyclists in the world appear. While this could be nice it is also not very realistic. In order to increase the realism and possibility for lesser riders to score a good result in some races i would think an overlap is cool.


Like you have the calender: The giro ditalia is currently underway. You have to sign up riders for that but at the same time we have the Tour of California as well. You will have to field a different team for that race. All the top sprinters may go to the Giro because of the money, the fame and the girls. But you have the lesser sprinters that do the ToC in order to get experience and get results. You can make the morning stages the giro stages and the evening stages the ToC stages + some day races/4 days of dunkirk whatever. Same for Paris - Nice and Tirreno, TdF etc etc.

If this was implemented would it still be necessary to change the form ???

Don't think so, but like I said before more changes to the calender would be nice. Like some variation every season. I hope for a big change like variation of main skill in the world championship race both for the road as the TT. But even small changes like the NT-schedule would be nice. Just ad some km's to a race or an extra flat section instead of downhill (just example) or even smaller in hill sections some extra hills. I think this is possible and fun in the staged races.

The facts about records and stuff, fun to know but not an improvement to the game. Especially because a complex formula is being used and only the speed is giving (so incomplete information)

Also the argument of not being able to use these records is not true. Variation in calender doesn't mean a race can't return so there can still be a record.




Another option which I think about at the moment. Is changing the order of races. So keeping the same races and stages but switch germany with Paris Nice for example. This way teams will have to reschedule and rethink the best moment to send your rider on a TC etc.

TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 02:27:50 pm »

Another option which I think about at the moment. Is changing the order of races. So keeping the same races and stages but switch germany with Paris Nice for example. This way teams will have to reschedule and rethink the best moment to send your rider on a TC etc.

Yes but saving all records for 1180 races instead of 118 could be a problem.  ???
But I personally don't think the "speed" records is worth keeping for a great update like this.
The top 20 palmarés should be recorded though  :P But I'm not sure if this will be a bigger burden for the server and capacity.

To shuffle up the calendar and put different tours at different time of the season will be difficult. Because of the smartness, balancing and manual planning of a season calendar.
Oska has also been talking about not knowing the calendar and be able to send riders into training camp before the 15 first races of the season.. Maybe there is a way to do this. I'm just trying to see the advantages and disadvantages with a change. I think a slight change in most stages during the season will create an adequate reschedule before each season.

TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2016, 12:39:27 am »
Changing the calendar will also have a huge effect on the achievements btw  ;D
I don't mind but some users have spend a lot of time for these.

Atalm93

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Averatalm NT-manager Norway
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2016, 02:32:20 pm »
I dont know if it is duable, but if a change in calender and stages is to come, then maybe a Team Time Trial could have been added?
I see Teamwork, Time Trial as main stats for that, and secondary flat/hill/climb/technique/stamina after its profile.

And maybe also prologues could be added?
Time Trial, Technique and aggresiveness could be important stats.
What would be even better is to make a new stats called prologue(but I guess that would be to complicated) :).


TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2016, 02:45:30 pm »
TTT is not possible because of the engine that simulates the races.
Also the break away possibility is highly wanted. But unfortunately that is a tough MotherFather. Not only for CFF  :) 

Sjiz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5951
  • TeamRolf - 3H
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2016, 02:57:35 pm »
TTT is not possible because of the engine that simulates the races.
Also the break away possibility is highly wanted. But unfortunately that is a tough MotherFather. Not only for CFF  :)

Psssht. Dont shoot down ideas. If everyone wants a TTT then Osca may decide its worth the effort to develop it. Thats what this is all about.

TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2016, 03:02:42 pm »
Yes I'm sorry  ;D

TeamSolex

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2998
  • Training a NewGen with Dr._Andrei_Mikhailov
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2016, 03:17:55 pm »
Atalm93 Mention a new skill as a possibility.

Prologue is maybe a little special and only used for one purpose.

But if the frequency of 19yo is heightened. New mental skills could be added to a rider so the best of the best are more difficult to achieve.
This could be leadership for GC riders. Bravery for sprinters and downhill specialists. Determination for uphill stage finishes, etc.
But this would require we have to start over again from season 1  ???

Timidus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1698
    • View Profile
Re: Long term perspective in CFF
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2016, 10:25:28 am »
I hope that an adjustment of divisions will be told in one season in advance. My team is built up around a long-term div1a strategy, but eg. this season I won't score as many points since I'm between generations, but I might be able to buy the riders needed for a top40/30 finish (others would try that too of course).

I wouldn't be close to promotion from 2nd division with my current team and doesn't have the time to adjust to a promotion from 2nd div currently, and I believe many rather solid 1a div. teams are in kind of the same position.

I do like the ideas - both calendar changing, and smaller divisions. I just think it's important to make people aware of a change in divisions in good time - there's quite a big difference between building a good team for winning races and having fun in 1a, and promoting from 2nd -> 1a (you need tour-riders to promote, you don't need that to be a good addition and strong top20-30 team in 1a... I love being in 1a, but eg. this is a vacation season for me, and I would hate to relegate because this change was suddenly made in a rush - we should know before the season what positions will secure staying in the division(s) - I do believe from what I understand, that it's your intention to let it be known in good time - perhaps even a period with smaller and smaller divisions would work best, but that might be too much work).

New calendar: Of course it would be a shame to lose som records and other historical stuff - but what about a combination of some races from the current calender, and then perhaps 10 races or so including a small tour that are changing, perhaps with some kind of fixed groundrules like the NT-calendars - I like the randomness from the NT-calendars, but I also like the fixed calendar with the possibility to train a rider dedicated to one specific race - why not combine the two :-)