Author Topic: U23 Australia S39  (Read 1800 times)

Vos

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2018, 07:03:14 pm »
Thanks for the reactions AA and Flandria  :)
Everyone makes his own choices ; I have some well thought out criteria for xp cyclists.
And I know other NT managers make different choices in who to select as xp cyclist.

I will not post them all, it is complicated because I m flexibel in that criteria.
One of the main criteria that it is a reward to the manager or even sometimes to encourage a manager (for example to ride his cyclist more often).
And of course the most important criteria is that the cylist is a real top-talent.

In the case of Les Odom, who is a real top talent ; if this was a pure mountain stage, I for sure would select him to see where he is compared to other 19yo's or even 20 yo's. In this mountain race he is not so suited because of the flat section.
And even it was a pure mountain race and than I would select him, the results can be misleading because of the tactics and the role the 19yo/20yo competition is riding in.
So the argument to compere him and to see how good he is, does not apply for this race.

Only in time trials I select a lot of young TT-specialists even though I know they will not score points, there are no tactics and a good measurement how they are compared to their also young foreign rivals. Of course they must be good enough to score points in the future, otherwise no xp spot for them in the time trial. But they are xp cyclists, and not as good as talents than for example toptalent Odom and others, who deserved more an xp spot in a time trial based on their potential for Australia as toptalent.
So as you can see even the who deserved it more (for example because of the great potential and even the best potential Australia has ever seen), is just one of the many criteria and could not be a diciding factor to select someone as xp cyclist (although it often is).

And in other races I always select suited young Australians who cannot score points also, for example as I did in this selection.
Good for their managers and in most cases also a reward, and they can see a little bit how good their talent is in a NT race.
But again, that even a little bit, can be misleading.

Of course I respect other NT managers who have other criteria to select xp cyclists.
As you can read I have even criteria in how many xp cyclists I select, that is every race a different amount. I explained why in this race there is just one xp cyclist. In the past I even had races with a lot of xp cyclists, mostly the main reason for that was the young Aussies including the teamcaptain were not good enough to score points in that race. Of course, I always try, so there always be a teamcaptain and 2 helpers. So sometimes there even can be 6 xp spots, or sometimes zero xp spots. And it depends on what the season goal is, for example when Australia is good enough to compete for the world championship, I would not select a lot of xp cyclists in such a season as I do when Australia has a not so good generation.

Vos

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2018, 07:49:57 pm »
or maybe my point is also a valid and coherent option.
That for sure could be the case, Flandria.
I'm not saying I have the best xp selection criteria, I'm just saying how I do it and in my opinion that is the best way to make a selection.

And I was elected, so my opinion is decisive regarding Australia u23.
Your opinion is decisive regarding France elite NT.
That is the fun part of being NT manager.  ;)
And I have good news for you ; France is not last as you wrote. Russia and Estonia are on the last place.
Hopefully you score more points, good luck ! 

Vos

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2018, 10:06:29 pm »
The only reason I post the preview on this page as well, is that this page looks better with it.  :)  8)
Feel free to continue about this subject (or other subjects) in this topic.
Good to read that Flandria and AA also have their own selection procedure about this subject, so good they think about it thoroughly.
I know not all CFF managers are that responsible when they do the job as NT manager.

RACE 4 : FRENCH PYRENEES


Le Pla d'Adet
28ºC

Lézat-sur-Lèze, France
Just one real xp-cyclist is selected and also there will be no free roles. Because tomorrow the teamcaptain is Owens.
And he needs all the support there is to achieve the main goal of this season, u23 individual world champion. That will not be easy to achieve and perhaps even unrealistic, but for now it is a goal worth to compete/ride for.

I really don't know what to expect. It seems to me Owens is good enough to score points, but in the mountain stage of the u21 two seasons ago not even one Australian cyclist scored points. Hopefully that does not happen again with this generation, Owens needs the points.
Well, it is a good experience for this selection to cycle these famous TdF mountains anyway.

And for the managers that have amazing Australian talents, and luckely there are a lot of them ;
no worries, they are for sure in the picture and more (semi)xp spots will come in the rest of this season.

Australia u23 selection :

Nick Owens (22) Sacido
George Embley (22) ItaliaCycling
Daley Power (22) Tramontana_
Keith Duffy (22) Ahorasi
Justin Farmer (21) OffTheFront
David Footman (22) Jylland
Isaac Carey (22) ADOLF97
Vince Alpin (20) FrançaiseDesJeux
Martin Warrenburg (21) Monster

Dirk

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2018, 10:11:36 pm »
Good luck with the race Vos!
Happy with the selection.  ;)

FlandriaFussion

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2018, 11:04:03 pm »
Thanks for the reactions AA and Flandria  :)
Everyone makes his own choices ; I have some well thought out criteria for xp cyclists.
And I know other NT managers make different choices in who to select as xp cyclist.

I will not post them all, it is complicated because I m flexibel in that criteria.
One of the main criteria that it is a reward to the manager or even sometimes to encourage a manager (for example to ride his cyclist more often).
And of course the most important criteria is that the cylist is a real top-talent.

In the case of Les Odom, who is a real top talent ; if this was a pure mountain stage, I for sure would select him to see where he is compared to other 19yo's or even 20 yo's. In this mountain race he is not so suited because of the flat section.
And even it was a pure mountain race and than I would select him, the results can be misleading because of the tactics and the role the 19yo/20yo competition is riding in.
So the argument to compere him and to see how good he is, does not apply for this race.

Only in time trials I select a lot of young TT-specialists even though I know they will not score points, there are no tactics and a good measurement how they are compared to their also young foreign rivals. Of course they must be good enough to score points in the future, otherwise no xp spot for them in the time trial. But they are xp cyclists, and not as good as talents than for example toptalent Odom and others, who deserved more an xp spot in a time trial based on their potential for Australia as toptalent.
So as you can see even the who deserved it more (for example because of the great potential and even the best potential Australia has ever seen), is just one of the many criteria and could not be a diciding factor to select someone as xp cyclist (although it often is).

And in other races I always select suited young Australians who cannot score points also, for example as I did in this selection.
Good for their managers and in most cases also a reward, and they can see a little bit how good their talent is in a NT race.
But again, that even a little bit, can be misleading.

Of course I respect other NT managers who have other criteria to select xp cyclists.
As you can read I have even criteria in how many xp cyclists I select, that is every race a different amount. I explained why in this race there is just one xp cyclist. In the past I even had races with a lot of xp cyclists, mostly the main reason for that was the young Aussies including the teamcaptain were not good enough to score points in that race. Of course, I always try, so there always be a teamcaptain and 2 helpers. So sometimes there even can be 6 xp spots, or sometimes zero xp spots. And it depends on what the season goal is, for example when Australia is good enough to compete for the world championship, I would not select a lot of xp cyclists in such a season as I do when Australia has a not so good generation.



On this subject i position myself with u 100%

WinterIsComing

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2018, 06:48:58 am »
Sorry to see you took my post so seriously. No criticism was intended at all. Just fooling around a bit...  ;)

Let's drink beer!  :)

Aurora_Australis

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2018, 07:23:19 am »
Let's drink beer!  :)
Now that's not a topic to turn to in Australia if you want to avoid seriousness.  Btw, tip, don't touch NSW beer (Tooheys etc), it'd be like drinking warm British beer.

Vos

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2018, 09:23:24 am »
Sorry to see you took my post so seriously.
???
That is your opinion, WiC.
A long text does not automatically mean I take it seriously.
Also with this I do not agree with you, but I better not write a long tekst about it now otherwise you might think again I take it so seriously.  ;)
It is just a game, and yes, what you read is that I take the selection of xp cyclists seriously.
And not the so-called criticism. I was very clear in my text about that.
And it is up to me what I take seriously and what not. Somebody else does not decide that for me.

Besides this, I think I know why you reacted the way you did, and I also think I know why Flandria reacted the way he did.
And as always I m right again.  :))
Because you confirmed now for a huge part of why you reacted, and that I already knew.
And perhaps to make this reply a little bit positiver to read, often I agree with you, WiC. For example the taxt below, always a good idea. :)
Let's drink beer!  :)

Flandria reacted in this way for a huge part because he has a great knowledge about climbers, more than me, that is for sure.
Talking about this :

Waiting for this. Owens vs Fohlmann vs Varlakov :P

In my preview :
I really don't know what to expect. It seems to me Owens is good enough to score points, but in the mountain stage of the u21 two seasons ago not even one Australian cyclist scored points. Hopefully that does not happen again with this generation, Owens needs the points.

I can see that in that u21 pure mountain stage ;
Fohlmann was 2nd on 0:07"
Varlakov was 7th on 0:43"
Owens was not in de top20.

Of course this is not a pure mountain stage, flat counts as well. (and that is better for Owens)
And I can see that Varlakov, Owens and Fohlmann are 7th, 8th and 9th in the u23 climbing Dream Team.
No doubt that Owens is in the u23 climbing Dream Team because he is an amazing hills-climber.

So, I wonder, Flandria, if you think Owens is good enough to challenge Fohlmann who was 2nd in that u21 race ;
it would be valuable information to me because than I have more tactical opportunities.
That he did not score points in that u21 race can perhaps be misleading to me and than I use more of a damage control tactic in order to get some points. But if Owens is way better then I estimate becasue of that u21 result, I rather use a tactic that he can score more points.
So if you have advice about Owens versus his rivals, Flandria, how he is compared to them in this race. Let me know, you have proven many times that your estimation about climbers is perfect.
WiC can also react if he wants.  ;D
Hahahaha, kidding.
But this is seriously ; I think WiC is one of the best CFF managers in this game, so advice of him is always welcome and very usefull.
So if he has an opinion about how Owens will do in this race, that is valueble info to me. It is a big difference in tactics if I know he can challenge the favorites of this race, or if he is just good enough to score a few points.

Good luck with the race Vos!
Happy with the selection.  ;)
Thanks Dirk  :)
Good to hear from somone who is the manager of the best 21yo Australian climber that finished as 3rd in an u21 mountain stage, but he is not selected for this race.
As you can see I have more faith in his 21yo teammate to be a helper in s1 and s2, and perhaps (little chance) in s3.
You also good luck with the u21 race ! Awesome season so far , you have.  8)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 09:28:33 am by Vos »

FlandriaFussion

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2018, 10:12:41 am »
Vos you've seen more data than me for this stage for sure.

But as i know Owens is Top3 Climbing on his class no doubt, Fohlmann is by far the best pure climber and he has not plain, but that doesnt matter cause he's really good on secondary skills. Finally Varlakov, i remember him performing at top level on a Live Race stage pretty similar to this one, with 1/2 plain sectors. Best Mountain-Hills climber alongside with Feierabend he is also.

I maybe forgot one men Libardo Revuelta, that if i remember correctly is a Mountain Plain Climbing beast. Probably he's the man to beat.

So for me this is the Top4. But as i said, i've no seen any result or riders information on the last months. So anything can happen and that's why i love this game :P
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 10:30:39 am by FlandriaFussion »

FlandriaFussion

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2018, 10:21:32 am »
On this generation i must say i am really impressed about Sebastián Vela, he lost only 20" to Otte on the Tirreno Adriatico queen stage this season being 1 year younger. This is a MASSIVE performance.

Another name to write down.

Vos

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2018, 10:26:52 am »
ok, many thanks for your very usefull reply, Flandria.  :)
And true, the differences can be changed a lot between those climbers.
It depends on talent rating and even more on how the manager trained his climber.
I can see Nick Owens is trained very well, so hopefully a good race of him.
And not everything depends on this race as regards to the individual u23 world championship,
in the final race of this season in Scotland he will score points too, I assume. But the competition is fierce, especially this evening.

Vos

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2018, 09:14:53 pm »
The helpers made finally a jump to the teamcaptain in s4 in order to launch him into s5.
Owens finished as 4th  8), 10 seconds behind Fohlman(DK) and Alberts(NL).
And just 1 second behind (grrrr^^) his rival Korsnes(NOO), because this is the ranking of the u23 individual world championship :

1º   Ken Korsnes   22      525   
2º   Nick Owens   22      505   
3º   Juan Alejandro Arrizabalaga   22      300   
4º   Robert Neyer   22      300   
5º   Malte Fohlmann   22      300   

Australian spies are already active in Norway, if Korsnes is any good in the final stage (Bealach Challenge).
Nick Owens his speciality is climb-hills.
So if his rival is not good in that race, Owens might have a very good change to become u23 world champion.

More promising info :
The number 5 in this stage finished 33 seconds behind Owens, that is a huge gap.  :)
Best helpers Power and Embley just outside the points with a 21st and 22nd place.

In the ranking by countries still 5th, in fact not much changed because al lot of countries are very close together, besides number 1 Norway, they had and have a big gap to the other countries.

Next week a sprint stage in Madrid.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 09:18:14 pm by Vos »

Vos

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2018, 09:53:42 pm »
Spies messages are very promising !  8)

Dirk

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2018, 04:56:25 pm »
Awesome result with Nick Owens @Vos

Vos

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Re: U23 Australia S39
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2018, 07:40:33 pm »
Thanks Dirk  :)
I think Nick Owens also could be a future star of the elite Australian NT.
One of the many Australian talents that could be good enough to get a lot of points for the Australian elite NT.
A few seasons patience, maybe less, and Australia will compete again for the highest positions and for 10 seasons in a row or so. 8)